If only I’d been taking notes. I post this in the hope that some sharp-eared Media Nation reader will be able to expand on what I heard yesterday while parking at Target to run a few errands.
Howie Carr was hosting his WRKO Radio (AM 680) show, and the topic was the killing at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School. Some of Carr’s observations were sensible. You do have to wonder what the parents of suspect John Odgren were thinking as he went off to school wearing a Columbine-style trench coat.
But then a caller opined that Odgren ought to be executed. I’m not making this up. Odgren is 16 years old and living with Asperger’s syndrome, a serious mental disorder, and some know-nothing know-it-all was ready to strap him into an electric chair as an example to others. I believe the caller also described Odgren as “an animal,” and “not a human being.”
And Carr agreed.
Then, within moments, Carr sounded like he was ready to change his tune. Those of us who’ve been reading and listening to Carr for years know there’s a good Howie and a bad Howie, and that occasionally he’ll remember that he’s supposed to be the adult in these exchanges. Or perhaps the producer was screaming in his ear, relaying orders from Entercom to inject a little sanity into the proceedings.
But alas. All Carr did was point out that you can’t reinstate the death penalty and use it on someone after the fact — a state of affairs he lamented. He further observed, bitterly, that Odgren would probably serve just 11 years or so, unless someone kills him in prison.
Maria Cramer reports in the Globe today that Odgren has a troubled history — so troubled that you have to wonder why he was allowed such freedom of movement at Lincoln-Sudbury. If he had been more closely supervised, James Alenson might be alive today.
There are plenty of questions about the way Odgren’s disability was managed. But for some mouth-breathing talk-radio caller to demand his execution — and for the host actually to agree — is so reprehensible and irresponsible that Carr, on reflection, would be deeply ashamed if he were capable of such an emotion.
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As someone with autistic children in my life, both a friend with Asperger’s syndrome and a nephew who is more profoundly afflicted, I have to say that I’m very glad that I don’t listen to Carr.What happened to Mr. Alenson was appalling, especially because it could have so easily been avoided, but killing Mr. Odgren won’t bring him back and I doubt it would work as an example. Mr. Odgren needs help, and money spent trying to reinstate the death penalty in the Commonwealth could be much better spent.-J
Dan, I think you should point out that the Globe article also states that “Several specialists familiar with Asperger’s have said that those with the condition are not more prone to violence than others.” So mentioning Aspergers in a way as to imply this could explain the violence may not be legitimate. If the Aspergers Syndrome is not a reason for the violence and he methodically planned to kill that day (I am guessing he did not find the knife on the floor of the bathroom), I do think life in prison is clearly a valid sentence.
Kevin: I have two responses —1. You’re not calling for John Odgren’s execution, are you? That’s what this item is about.2. Your analysis of Asperger’s syndrome is incredibly superficial. Read Maria Cramer’s story, and read some of the other coverage as well. One very likely theory is that Odgren’s Asperger’s resulted in his being ostracized and bullied to the breaking point. He is 16 years old, for God’s sake.
Dan, I agree with your two responses to Kevin. However, I’m a bit mystified at the “You do have to wonder what the parents of suspect John Odgren were thinking as he went off to school wearing a Columbine-style trench coat” comment.There are issues here, to be sure, but lots of kids wear trench coats and lots of kids commit violent acts and there is no — repeat — no correlation between the two.
Mike: “Lots of kids wear trench coats”? You think so? I am in touch with a lot of high-school-age kids, and I haven’t seen one in a trench coat yet. Odgren’s classmates apparently got the Columbine connection, even if no one else did. This kid needed more help than he was getting — even if, as has also been reported, his parents were very involved and concerned about him.
Dan,No, I am not calling for his execution. I think my statement, “I do think life in prison is clearly a valid sentence”, is quite clear. That is not my analysis of Asperger’s, it is that of the experts cited in the article – “Several specialists familiar with Asperger’s have said that those with the condition are not more prone to violence than others.” If, as has been reported, that there was no known connection between Odgren and the victim it would appear to be an act of premeditated violence against a random person which I think should be dealt with severely. FYI – I do not listen to Howie Carr and do not agree with him in this instance (and in most instances I would suspect).
Carr’s inappropriate comment was, I suspect, a reflection of the frustration many of us feel about a system where rights exist without commensurate responsibilities. If anyone involved in the placement of young Odgren at LS pays any kind of price, I’ll eat my hat. Things go right, everyone hogs the spotlight. Things go wrong, “mistakes were made” and passive voice rules. I’m surprised, (and relieved), this sort of event doesn’t happen more often, given the levels of accountability in our educational system.
Dan, all well and good. But – I cannot believe you actually listen to Howie Carr. Or any of that shizzle.
Oh, a pissing contest — what fun!Well then let’s just ban trenchcoats, shall we?Try walking the Chestnut Hill Mall sometime. Heck, some of the kids wearing them look almost … sane.
Anonymous 10:02 has some great second guessing and rationalization going on. I mean, shouldn’t everyone have realized that given this kid’s history he would murder a classmate? George W. Bush used to blow up frogs with firecrackers. Everyone should have known he would get us into the Iraq mess. See how easy and fun this is?Exactly what “price” should the people who placed Ogdren at L-S pay?
There’s a “good” Howie? C’mon, Dan…the man’s paid to get people to listen. Controversial statements get people to listen. If you want sensible, reasoned debate…go listen to NPR.What I personally found very offensive was that Harvard Med doctor who was quoted early on in the coverage of this by saying something to the effect of “if it can happen at Lincoln-Sudbury (High School) it can happen anywhere.”Well, no shit, genius. People seem to forget how ritzy and rich-kid Columbine High School was, y’know? That statement smacks of a parent who thinks just because they got their kid into a rich white high school that they’re all set and don’t have to work as hard at being a parent. Children of those parents can be just as vicious as kids in any high school…I can testify to that effect.Now granted, I’m willing to give this guy a pass since it was an emotional time and he just found out there was a murder in the same building as where his kids were. That’s enough to send a lot of parents into “warp panic” mode and say things based more on emotion than intellect.But the attitude it conveys still annoys the crap out of me.
Kevin o – Aspergers is not something you just turn off or on depending on the situation. It’s a condition that affects EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of your social interaction with other people.One thing that characterizes Aspergers is a profound difficulty interpreting social cues. This means kids with Aspergers literally “don’t get it”. In a wildly hypothetical example, if Alenson was taunting and threatening Odgren all week…Odgren may literally have been acting in immediate self-defense from his perspective; rather than premeditated murder. To him, he may have been fearing for his life…even though to an outside observer it might’ve seemed like “normal” high school teasing.This difficulty with social cues also means kids with Aspergers have a hard time understanding the concept of authority; to them, if you’re wrong, then you’re wrong…and you should be corrected if possible so you’re no longer wrong. It can be exasperating for teachers who have to deal with this (from their perspective) nitpicky kid who’s undermining their authority in front of the class…and I’m sure it doesn’t make the Aspergian teen popular with the rest of the class; he/she comes off as a blunt, know-it-all. The ultimate point here, is that it’s quite possible Ogdren felt he literally had no one to turn to, and that carrying a knife was his only protection. Us saying that “of course he did have someone to turn to” is rubbish – that’s the point of a syndrome, the person can’t see things the way everyone else does.Of course, we’re all just armchair quarterbacking here…none of us really know what the facts are. It could well be that Odgren was acting in a premeditated way to kill someone he disliked. Murder one & life in jail for the kid then. But I strongly suspect that Odgren would not be well-served by that…more likely what the kid needs is a whole boatload of therapy.Anon. 10:02 – I don’t quite agree with you, but I will add this: if Odgren is going to be tried as an adult, then everyone connected to him should be tried as an adult as well. If…IF…Odgren was indeed made into a social pariah by Alenson and others, then those kids should all be charged as accessories.
I’ve been listening to Howie for a long time, and like one of the other commenters, I’m hard pressed to identify what you describe as the “good” Howie Carr. I think it’s more a case of bad and worse. He makes his living being a rabblerouser, both on the radio and in the newspaper, and rabblerousers, for all their noise, always play it safe. The reason he hasn’t got into trouble like some of his colleagues is because he’s no dummy. If there seems to be a “good” side to Howie, it exists not because of any scruples he might have about what he does, but because of his caginess. He knows just how far he can go. Others get popped because their passion carries them away. Howie is able to walk that tightrope safely because he isn’t passionate about anything, except making money by exploiting the passions of others.His listeners have a passionate desire for this boy to be executed in the most painful manner possible, and so he panders to their bloodthirstiness. If there’s anything good to be said about Howie Carr, it’s that he is a symptom, not a disease.If we had public executions, Howie would be there at every one, broadcasting from location. He knows where his bread is buttered.
Perhaps one thing will come of this – a reexamination of wholesale integration.
Why do you waste a nanosecond on the Carrtoon?
>>He is 16 years oldAnd his victim never lived to see his16th birthday. Odgren, if he’s sentenced to life in prison, will get to breathe oxygen (albeit in captivity) for many decades to come.
It seems like the “progressives” are trying desperately to have their cake and eat it too in this case.If sufferers of so-called Asperger’s Syndrome have no predilection to violence, why is the syndrome even being mentioned in this story? It’s akin to saying, “Johnny had diabetes, but experts say there is no evidence that teens with his condition are more prone to violence.” If it’s irrelevant, omit it. If it IS RELEVANT, as we all suspect, stop sidestepping it and tell us.The liberals should stop worrying about offending the others out there who’ve been told they have “Asperberger’s Syndrome” (or those who “fall under the umbrella of Autism,” as one kook on WGBH called it) and instead come out and say that it is very likely that Odgren’s condition, whatever it may be, contributed to the homicide. As for Howie Carr’s comments, Odgren wouldn’t be the youngest, nor the first with mental illness, to be legally punished by death. At 16, charged with first degree murder in MA, he must legally be tried as an adult. See O’Brien, Eddie.To feign horror over Carr’s comments ignores not only reality, but the sentiment expressed by Massachusetts voters every time the death penalty has been placed before them.
CCFK,”Exactly what “price” should the people who placed Ogdren at L-S pay?”If warning signs were what have been alleged, the same “price” that money managers who screw up pay all the time, a damaged reputation and a change of employers, (if they’re lucky).
Didn’t follow up articles state that associated Doctors and case workers had noted in the records that the kid did have a history of violent behavior? If this was the case, and these parts of his history were not seen by the approval authority to – main stream – Ogdren, some level of accuntability must occur beyond the trial for murder. Ref Carr: he chums the water, the chumps respond.
If sufferers of so-called Asperger’s Syndrome have no predilection to violence, why is the syndrome even being mentioned in this story?O-fish-l I thought I explained that but apparently not, so I’ll do it again. It’s POTENTIALLY relevant because while an Aspergian person is not inherently more prone to violence…they are prone to misinterpreting social cues. In some cases, misinterpreting them so badly that violence can end up as a result.For that matter, any one of a dozen other things can end up as a result, too. It’s not just violence. For example, I know of an Aspergian woman who was nearly raped because she completely mis-read the social cues she was receiving from (and giving to) another man. Fortunately she had a friend who intervened, but she had literally no idea how much danger she was in until the friend told her later.That’s just one example of how skewed an Aspergerian person’s perspective can be. Again, we don’t really know how (or even IF) Odgren’s perspective is skewed. Assuming for a moment it is, then I don’t think it’s particularly “just” to try him under the same rules as the rest of us.
The theory that ostracization and bullying due to Odgren’s Asbergers might account for him reaching “the breaking point” doesn’t square with the fact that he became “aggressive at times when confused or ordered to do work”, and that he was suspended three times for physical aggression within a two-month period, years earlier. Since he already had a history of aggressive behavior, triggered by relatively innocuous tasks and his inability to “understand the effect of his behavior on others” then whatever incident that sparked this tragic event might have been just as innocuous. For a kid on the edge, any sideways look, even from some shy little freshman, might be enough, and wouldn’t constitute bullying in a normal context.Specialists who say that those with Asberger’s syndrome are not more prone to violence than others should add, nor are they any less prone to violence, either. The fact that they do not, for fear perhaps of feeding the persistent stereotype that the mentally ill are dangerous, is where Fish’s PC complaint comes from I think–though there’s no point in attaching the tired “liberal” label to it. It’s more honest I think to say that the mentally ill have just as much potential for violence as anybody else.As for the finger pointing, it’s easy to cast about for blame after the fact. But there are a lot of troubled, aggressive kids out there and most of them don’t commit murder.
not a Howie fan, this:…while an Aspergian person is not inherently more prone to violence…they are prone to misinterpreting social cues. In some cases, misinterpreting them so badly that violence can end up as a result…is not a useful distinction. In other words an Aspergian person is only potentially violent when confronted with social cues to misinterpret i.e., when in society. “Inherent” is moot then because violence occurs in society after all. And if it can happen as a result of misinterpreting cues to be threats, that others would simply shrug off, then it’s a problem.Not to put too fine a point on any of this. Seems to me he is obviously mentally ill whatever the particular diagnosis, so any suggestion that he be eligible for the death penalty is absurd on its face.
not a Howie fan, this:…while an Aspergian person is not inherently more prone to violence…they are prone to misinterpreting social cues. In some cases, misinterpreting them so badly that violence can end up as a result…is a distinction without a functional difference. In other words an Aspergian person is only potentially violent when confronted with social cues to misinterpret i.e., when in society. “Inherent” is moot then because violence occurs in society after all. And if it can happen as a result of misinterpreting cues to be threats, that others would simply shrug off, then it’s a problem.Not to put too fine a point on any of this. Seems to me Odgren is obviously mentally ill whatever the particular diagnosis, so any suggestion that he be eligible for the death penalty is absurd on its face.
Oh come on, Asperger’s syndrome a “serious mental disorder”? I don’t think so.
Sorry for the near-identical double post above. I would delete my pre-lunch version at 12:24 if I could. If you comment via your blogger account you can delete your wayward or duplicate comments, but I’ve been commenting anonymously lately after having lost a comment more than once, at the login step. (Plus my blog is neglected and lame.)Conversely, I thought I had already posted a comment almost exactly like this one yesterday afternoon, but either I didn’t, or it disappeared into the ether. I don’t have Asperger’s, but may have Alzheimer’s.On topic, to anonymous 3:36’s doubts that Asperger’s is a “serious mental disorder”, you are not alone. Wikipedia has an interesting article about this. Here’s a quote from the “Non-clinical perspective” section:Some professionals contend that, far from being a disease, AS is simply the pathologizing of neurodiversity that should be celebrated, understood and accommodated instead of treated or cured.The dispute about how to characterize Asperger’s is similar to the cultural battle in the deaf community–is it a disability or merely a difference? Check out Wrong Planet and Aspies for Freedom links too. It seems too subjective to be able to claim that it’s a “serious mental disorder” in and of itself. Now, I wonder if I posted this already… I’ll post via blogger to be able to delete it if so.
In a letter addressed to parents, Principal John Ritchie stated that John Odgren did not in fact own a trenchcoat. Also it was brought out at the parent meeting held last Friday that at this point, it appears as if both boys did not in fact know one another prior to the events of January 19th. In other words, it was an attack on James Alenson.
Why would a young teenager with asperger’s syndrome have the intention to committ a gruesome killing? Why was he obsessed with violence? Why do people with the disorder have the intention to think about killing and gruesome crimes? Didn’t he know that killing is wrong? What inspired him to get fixated on violence? What is wrong with him? Speaking of mental health, John Paul Penry, a mentally retarded man was convicted of raping and murdering Pamela Mosely Carpenter in October of 1979. John Paul Penry, who has been sentenced to death had the mental capability of a child below pre-adolescence (6 – 7 year old) and to this day, he cannot read or write.
As someone who worked with John earlier on in his life I can tell you that part of his make up was to “hyperfocus” on certain things and learn all about them. Prior to that school year his parents made the mistake of allowing him to take a crime scene investigation class at Mount Wachusett Community College. That is where his fixation started. People can say what they want aabout his parents being nice people, but they are complete enablers and they didn’t want to see the side of their son that was so dark and violent. And trust me, it was always there, Asperger’s or no Asperger’s…
Jonathan Shapiro (John Odgren’s lawyer) looks alot like Carole Spinney, the actor known for doing Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch on SESAME STREET.